Author: Wesley Fryer

These are my notes from the first evening of our new Wednesday evening adult study class at church, “Love is an Orientation.” We are principally using the book the book “Love Is an Orientation: Elevating the Conversation with the Gay Community” by Andrew Marin as our discussion text. We are using the videos and discussion guide which is also available for this book. We’ve setup a website, FaithDiscussions.org, to use as a space for conversations and discussions about the book and the issues it raises.

Tonight we started with a video interview of Tim Keller, evangelical pastor in NYC

“What do Christians have against Homosexuality? Tim Keller at Veritas”

Some Christian churches are ignoring what the Bible says about homosexuality to engage with homosexuals, others

Some Christians will love and befriend their Hindu and Muslim neighbors, but hate their homosexual neighbors

Heterosexuality doesn’t get you to heaven, so how could homosexuality send you to hell?
– Jesus talks about greed 10 times more than adultery
– you know when you’re committing adultery, but almost no one thinks they are greedy because they are comparing themselves to others

Will greed send you to hell? No. Self-righteousness will, believing you don’t need God.
– what does get you to heaven is a personal relationship with Christ and confessing your sins / your need for him

Of course homosexuality is a sin, greed is a sin too
– unfortunately many Christians hear this and think “if you’re a homosexual you’re going to hell” and that’s wrong

What sends you to heaven or hell is not just “I’m a homosexual” or “I’m a heterosexual”
– you can’t be your own savior through your own actions and good works
– sin underneath the sin which is “I am my own savior” will send people to hell

Thoughts from John on where he’s been with these issues:
– finally started reading the Bible in his late 20s, looking for how he can justify himself in those pages
– my wife pointed out I was reading the Bible as a medical journal and trying to get it to conform to me
– when I started letting the scriptures shape me, looking for the meaning life
– it was a challenge for what the kingdom of God looks like
– what justice looks like is not fighting just for your own way, it’s submitting to others

1991 in General Assembly had a report on human sexuality
– was a culmination of the first phase of this battle in PCUSA
– all about “justice love” (anything is ok as long as it’s between two consenting adults and justice is involved)
– I remember thinking that this has nothing correlated to what I’ve been reading in the Bible

When I was called to Austin Seminary the pastors said, “Why?”
– my answer was I wanted to read the theology that was stimulating the other side of this conversation
– I tried to approach the issue with an open mind in seminary

Entire time I was in professional ministry these issues kept coming up and distracting both sides of the church from doing anything productive, in my view
– so I lost interest in the conversation
– I never heard anything new
– I am always open to hear new ideas, read a new book
– I came to this class hoping maybe there is a way to elevate the conversation, to be more Christian and converse on a better level

Matt’s perspective
– I’ve had gay friends all my life
– my first best friend was gay, he didn’t know until he turned 30 but I knew it when he was 6
– something wrong with me? I always seem to attract gay people!

I am about introducing God’s big plan for people
– that is often about restrictions
– that’s about all I learned

Curt’s perspectives
– John went to a liberal seminary and came back
– I was one of the token liberals at my evangelical seminary because I was middle of the road
– I find myself drawn to the liberal-progressive arguments because they have heart, but when I examine them closely they don’t stand up to rational analysis

Robert Gagne’s book, very scholarly and authoritative
– his book doesn’t have heart

I am really tired of all the factionalism

Keep thinking of Gamaliel, Acts 5
– sitting on Sanhedrian, reminds others we’ve seen uprisings before
– if it is not of God, it will fail
– I wish our big church could wait and see what unfolds: 50 years, 100 years
– it may be a long time

I would like to live in the tension
– I see liberal / progressives cutting all kinds of corners in their interpretation of scripture
– on the conservative side, we see very rigid interpretations that is all ‘head stuff’ where they are not thinking with their hearts

I’d like to encourage for people to live in the tension until we can discern together what is God’s will in this matter
– that’s where I am and why I put this class together

Andrew Marin is a very interesting guy
– very conservative, evangelical Christian
– was shaken to the core when 3 of his closest friends came out as homosexual within 3 months of each other
– moved with his wife to Chicago, has lived for 10 years in Boys Town living with LGBT community learning what things are like for them, and what the church has been like for them

Watching these videos makes me realize I’m a homophobe
– this is like discovering I’m a racist environmental

We have many stereotypes that are wrong
– not all LGBT are out, loud and proud, and want to have nothing to do with Christians

Laura teaches human anatomy and physiology, and is the sponsor of the “Equality Club” at her school which is the LGBT club
– I asked her to come as a resource to this class

Now sharing our names and 1 thing related to these issues that we’ve wanted to hear addressed. Here are the questions we shared together:

– Why is it hard to be honest and open about these issues?
– Why is this such a big deal?
– What’s the church’s response to homosexual actions?
– Are people born with their sexuality defined?
– What happens to unrepentant homosexuals?
– Why as a society are we singling out this one issue?
– What are heteros so afraid of?
– Are there any gray issues here?
– Can we explore the complexity of sexuality and sexual identity?
– hOw can we be on the compassionate side and act against hate?
– What does ‘living in the tension’ about this issue look like?
– How does God want ME to address this?
– Could we welcome people into our church community who are gay and support gay lifestyles?
– Why do we spend so much time talking about the gospel of Jesus determining if you go to heaven or hell, rather than what it looks like to live under the lordship of Jesus Christ / in his kingdom?
– How can we reclaim our brothers and sisters who we (in many cases) have pushed aside our out (even of our churches)?

I mentioned Google’s project “It Gets Better” and in my question asked how we can be on the compassionate side of this project, which is (I think) an outstanding project. It’s seeking to give hope to kids to not give up and commit suicide in their teen years if they are gay and struggling in their school / family / community. As Christians we (I think) need to be on the COMPASSIONATE side of this discussion, NOT on the (or a) HATEFUL side.

John’s point: We should keep all issues of sexuality in our minds
– all the colleagues I’ve known who have lost their positions in the church, and in 1 case even their ordination, have been over heterosexual behavior

money, sex, power: all of these things have a lot of control and influence over us